专访 | 汤姆·梅恩：中国正见证一场建筑变革

汤姆·梅恩（Thom Mayne），2005年普利兹克建筑奖得主，曾担任美国前总统奥巴马美术和人文委员会成员，其事务所墨菲西思是较早在中国展开实践的国际团队。对于当下社会的复杂特质，建筑该如何回应？在梅恩的观察中，中国的建筑设计处在怎样的阶段？下为有方独家视频专访及全文。

有方  在Combinatory Urbanism一文中，您提及当下社会高流动性、复杂范式、未来之不可预测等特质，对您建筑设计语言的影响。假定当前社会确实有此特性，建筑可否以不同策略去回应它？墨菲西思作品中的复杂张力，可能是一种反映（representation）；但建筑可否是一个中性空间，作为背景，去容纳这种复杂；甚至以弱化、极简的策略，去抵制、消解当前社会的嘈杂与不稳定？

梅恩  我希望我们能面对面对话，因为你的问题很... 这里面有一个很有趣的连续性。你询问建筑与当代社会的关系，以及建筑师可否以不同的策略来回应；例如，墨菲西思是在反映社会条件，然后你说，我们可否反其道而行之，以极简主义来抵制这一趋势......是和可以。在今日的建筑学中，没有单一的元叙事。我们着迷于各不相同之物。

I wish we could be having a dialogue, because it would be a little smoother, because your questions are so.. there’s a continuity that is so interesting, it would be a little different if we could talk and if you were saying these words. Because again, in question 8, you go back and you discuss in terms of our book, Combinatory Urbanism, you ask about the relationship with contemporary society and can architects deal with these diverse strategies, for example, and are we mirroring social conditions, and then you say, can we actually produce minimalism to resist that tendency… (22:35) Yes and Yes. There is no singular meta-narrative today in architecture. We’re interested in something quite different.

我想说的是，当下社会的高流动性、我们世界的瞬息万变、全球范围内复杂的种种情形，都与建筑有着关系——对我来说，它们能够扩大建筑的潜能范围。你看到的项目和对它们的思考，体现着当代性，体现着生活在当下意味着什么，体现着当前的设计工作的意义——建筑把这些东西作为机会，连接起来。建筑的复杂性反映了我们作为人类可以欣赏到的生命，以及它的丰富和充实。就这么简单。建筑可被视为一种艺术形式，也许像电影一样，有能力在智识、概念、情感等等层面，记录并展示大量的主题以及兴趣。这些都是墨菲西思在发展自己的设计理念时，所用的材料。

I’m going to say that the relationship of an architecture that’s informed by whether it’s the notion of high mobility and its relationship to the ephemerality of our world, whether it has to do with the complexity of the multiplicity of the various global conditions, (that could be a long long discussion) that for us these are opportunities to expand the range of possibilities in architecture. And I’m just going to say yes, the work you’re looking at, going from the work going back to the way the work was generated, that these things that you’re asking - these conditions- that literally represent contemporariness, what it means to be alive and to be producing work at this time in history. It’s going to connect to the use of these things as opportunities. And that the complexity of the work is nothing more than a reflection of the complexity that represents the richness, the fullness of life, that is available to us to appreciate and to enrich us at human beings. Its as simple as that. And its seems as though architecture as an art form, maybe with cinema, has the capability of documenting and exhibiting this enormous range of subject matter, interest, on both an intellectual, conceptual, and emotional level, that becomes our material that we work with in terms of developing our ideas. (26:04)

有方  承接上一个问题，您如何理解建筑与其所处时代的关系？建筑应该忠实地反映或体现其同时代的人类经验吗？

梅恩  对于你所说的“同时代人的经验”，建筑在某种层面上会记录、阐释并具体化人们对这种经验的感受。然而这是非常复杂和宏大的话题，我们必须回到更为具体的语境。我们今天是在一个全球化的环境里进行建筑实践，墨菲西思设计的项目，有的在卡萨布兰卡，有的在马德里，有的在米兰，在中国和韩国也有很多。这一现实直接地回应了你关于“同时代人类经验”的问题：我们的实践就是全球化进程的一部分，我们付出大量时间和精力的建造，正是将全球化问题在各地域间进行解读、沟通的媒介。我们发现着世界各地的不同文化，并以建筑作为某种“结缔组织”，将这种多元串联起来——这足够开启一个全新的讨论了。

I would expand that, that when you say contemporary human experience - yes, I just said that – that it’s somehow, its documenting, concretizing, interpreting notions of your perception of that experience, but that’s an enormous territory today and to begin with it would lead us to a discussion of the global nature of how we practice that goes back to your very first question about what it means to practice in china starting in 2005. Today we’re working, literally globally, we’re in Casablanca, we’re in Madrid, we’re in Milan, and we’re obviously all over China and Korea. So it opens up this questions, that when you’re discussing contemporary urban experience, we are in fact part of this idea of globalization, we’re actually part of that process, and our work is translating cross-culturally these issues. And we’re finding connective tissue between our different experiences of the world that we bring to the work. And that in itself represents and incredibly complicated construct that as we make these connections that we literally are part of the connective tissue between cultures, and then maybe that would be a complete separate conversation.

我一直对中国抱有很大的兴趣。因为无论是意大利的、德国的或者英国的建筑师，他们都正在以自己的视角和理解去解读中国当前文化、政治、经济等各方面的复杂性，而中国正逐渐成为这一现象的接收者。来自世界各地不同文化背景的人，会在中国用建筑这一相对永久、确定的手法来表达他们对中国的解读。从建筑学角度讲，这将使中国变得非常具有吸引力。如果我们在50年或100年后再次提出这些问题，它们将更为有趣——那时我们反顾中国当下所处的环境，能看到的不仅仅是数以亿计的人从城市外围搬入城市这一强有力的革命性变革（尽管这已是20世纪末21世纪初人类历史的决定性现象之一），但更为重要的是，作为其所处时代的符号，中国当下承载的建筑实践，正将这片土地定义为一个极具吸引力的地方。不同文化视角都在审视并试图“翻译”中国，其共性和差异又组织着一个建筑整体。

What’s happening of course now in China, is that China is becoming the receiver of this situation, as its architects - whether they’re from Italy or from Germany, or English, etc., that--that it becomes a receiver of a series of people interpreting culture and the complexity of political, economic, cultural events, and interpreting it through their lens, their vision of the world,would think if we could re-ask these questions in 50 or a 100 years, it’s going to be fascinating, and we’re going to look back and see this particular time in China not only as revolutionary and incredibly kind of powerful in your half a billion people move from this agrarian to an urban existence, which is already kind of a major phenomena that will define the end of the 20th century and the beginning of the 21st, but at the level of the questions you’re asking, having to do with the nature of architecture as symbolic of its time and of its situation, it''s going to make it a completely fascinating kind of place, because you have these multiple viewpoints, these multiple lenses that are looking at this situation and translating it, and it’s going to make some combination of the commonality of all cultures, as they reflect architecture.

因此我觉得中国现阶段的建筑设计都非常有趣，因为很多设计都可以将注意力放在城市的复杂性上，当前许多社会、文化、政治等重大事件，也都发生在这些复杂密集的区域。

And I think architecture it will become one of the more interesting aspects of what’s going on in your country at this point in time, and especially because this can be focused on the urban, which already is about the connective tissue, and is the most kind of heightened environment if you’re looking at social, cultural, political events.

非常希望我们在未来的某一天可以见面。因为能跟你们将这个对话继续进行下去，是一件非常有趣的事情。我非常享受这种交流，这些问题本身就将我们带向了一些新的方向。

Hopefully we would have a chance to meet sometime, because it would be really interesting to continue this conversation as a dialogue. I just wanted to say that as an end, because I have to say that, I’m engaged in how you asked the questions, and how you in some ways answered the questions you were asking, because you were already kind of moving me into a direction and hopefully we’ll have a conversation soon in Shanghai.

录像 | Jasmine Park

文字整理 | Nicole Meyer、Jaclyn Rusher、Carolyn Ng

文字及视频整理 | 沈璐妍、王亚珂

采编 | 原源

剪辑 | 赵筱雅

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